gender(s)

[falcongrrl]

Lately I find myself getting into several conversations about gender.

It's interesting. As a regular person, I tend to think of gender as a societal construct, or at least be very comfortable with that idea. As a mom, I've heard too many stories of moms who bought trucks for their girl, only to have them languor on the shelf while she begged for a Barbie. And my son mostly used his dolls as missles against invisible bad guys.

My five-year-old is practically a card-carrying member of the NRA, and my two-year-old girl loves feeding us all and playing with baby dolls and little Fisher-Price people. Still, the five-year-old also loves to wear earrings and pretty dresses (though he doesn't advertise this fact, or do it as much as he used to). And the two-year-old is always trying to start fights with her big brother, punching and kicking.

Maybe gender has to do with what we recognize. Maybe I'm more likely to affirm, even subconsciously, certain behaviors in each child that I ignore in the other. Maybe TV is the culprit, where every car commercial shows a group of only boys and every doll commercial shows only girls. Maybe it's my child's older friends, who have already started with the, "that's a girl thing. You like a girl thing. Boys aren't supposed to like X."

And then there's the question of how much deviation from the norm is good for them. If I continue letting my 5-year-old think that wearing nail polish is perfectly reasonable, what's going to happen when he tries to wear it to his kindergarten class on the first day of school?

Not that it would happen, or at least, not more than once. I don't know if all kids are this way or not, but mine seem remarkably good at picking up on nonverbal cues that say what's 'okay' or 'not okay' in any given environment.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this on a personal level, not just with my kids but with myself. What is my true gender identity? If you're curious, feel free to

I honestly don't know. But here are some ideas for your perusal and hopefully enjoyment. Also, for the brave, I'd be curious to see what your gender laundry lists look like. And, as always, ymmv.

We'll start with the obvious...

When I feel like a girl

When I'm intimate with a guy (D, for the past 12 years, not counting online stuff).
During certain lunar month moments.
When pregnant.
When I'm putting on makeup or painting my toenails.
When I paint the 5yo's fingernails.
When I'm naked.
When my kids come to me for soothing and comforting, because no one else will do.
When my feelings are hurt.
When I cry.
When I sing, mostly, although sometimes not if I'm singing at the bottom of my range (or singing a duet with a girl).
When I flirt with boys.
When I'm wearing a dress and fm pumps I feel good in.
When I'm wearing a corset *evil grin*.
When I long for stuff I don't have.
When I tell someone I love them.
When I'm driving poorly.
When someone tells me I'm being too sensitive.
When I get excited and enthusiatic.
When I'm daydreaming, usually about relationships.


When I feel like a boy

When I'm wearing a dress I don't feel comfortable in (hee!).
When I'm wearing jeans and a tshirt (standard uniform for me) and I see a female in a short skirt and fm pumps.
When I'm looking at pr0n.
When I'm attracted to girls.
When I get mad at someone (often on someone else's behalf) and want to start a fight (either physical or verbal) with them. (I don't, mind you. Just sometimes I feel like I'd want to.)
When I wear my hiking boots.
When I push myself to do something because I feel like I have to.
When I take responsibilty for a situation.
When I act brave, and do the thing, even if inside I feel scared. (Although feeling scared, and admitting it? Girly.)
When I say derogatory things about a girl, esp a girl who dumped or otherwise hurt my friend.
When I order an amber beer, and D orders a margarita, and the waiter gets our drinks mixed-up, and then when we switch says "Really?" in a voice of disbelief.
When someone says "I love you" to me, but I feel awkward about it.
When I tell the fyo to just "suck it up" or "deal with it."
When I'm driving well.

When I feel genderless:

When I write.
When I laugh.
When I play on the computer.
When I study something.
When I brainstorm.
During the "a-ha" moments.
When I'm feeling spiritually aware.
When I'm dreaming (while sleeping).

Wow. I'm so curious as to what other people's lists would be, or even if other people would have a list like mine. So...if you've read this far...please, respond.

A+

Comments

[winnett.livejournal.com]

I don't really have lists like that, that isn't how I see it. But let me start first with some info someone told me, but I haven't looked into myself. And that is:

There are more than two genders. There is the physical aspect of the penis and vagina that we designate as genders, and it is easy for us to say one is male and the other is female. However, research has shown that gender is more chemical/hormonal than just one or the other. That as you develope as a child (or maybe an embryo) different hormonal and chemical responses trigger a switch and that there are something like 6 or 7 switches within you. So in essence there are 14 genders (or whatever number it was). It is more of a sliding scale than a one or the other.

Then someone else in that same conversation said that they heard that an indian tribe (I think it was Navajo) distinguished 14 different genders. I thought that was interesting, but never looked into it.

I have always felt more 'male' than 'female' in many aspects of my life. I have always been a tom boy. Now if that has to do with how I was raised or some chemical switches in my body, I am not sure. I am not a girly girl and feel false and uncomfortable when I am one, though sometimes it is fun to pick a 'persona' and act it out.

I have another theory, based on my religious beliefs. I belive in reincarnation and while I think a soul is genderless, I also think that if you have been one gender more than another that it tends to affect you. While most of my meditations into past lives I have felt female, I wonder if I have more male lives out there. Just a theory and a thought I look forward to delving into more.

But yes, I don't necessarily fit well into the 'female' skin I wear. I am somewhere in the middle and I am okay with that. I am learning to accept things about myself more and more.

[eloiseaparis.livejournal.com]

this post of yours was fascinating to me on many many levels.

regarding child development - so, so much is learned, not inherent. cooper only started thinking like a ninja after he saw the other boys doing it. before he was 4, most of his little friends were girls and he played with them well - he still does. he's always been a kid more on the softer, sweeter, non-competitive side. i assume it's how i've raised him. even now, he prefers the comapny of the non-agressive boys. i am very much relieved, as i don't think i could manage with a testosterone-laiden agressive boy. our society does a very poor job of letting kids seek their own level, instead pushing them into box A or box B.

our society does that with adults, too. people land all across the spectrum of human sexuality, and yet we, the most ignorant of species, continue to shove people into box A or box B. sure, the "average" person falls into one of the two pre-defined categories, but "average" implies a median score, which means people fall above and below the centerline. people seem to have forgotten this, instead taking "average" to be the steadfast rule. and it's really really wrong. 1 in 1000 births is physically intersexed - god only knows how many are psychologically so. that's a LOT of people who don't naturally fit into box A or box B. in the further evolution of our species, intersexuality may not be "abnormal" but instead the next step. i have very strong opinions on this subject as i've had some experiences here, myself (no, i'm not bi-sexual or a lesbian - not that there is anything wrong with being either - nor am i a pedophile or a sociopath), it's just really disheartening for me to hear about things like babies being born somewhat ambiguous, and having some pediatrician decide whether they should be raised in box A or box B, and things like that, or little boys being told they can't play with dolls, or little girls not being allowed to play football, if they want. the ignorance of the "average" human being, i find completely appalling.

ok - so that wasn't written particularly well, and yes, i have my reasons for feeling impassioned about this subject. i hope i got my point across.

i find it interesting that you feel your writing "voice" is neither female nor male, and probably only because my own writing style is all-girl.

what's interesting to me is that until like week 16 or so, ALL fetuses are female. we all carry within us all the genetic material to be boys OR girls. how those building blocks are assembled, however, makes all the difference. if you understand that, it should be obvious that people will fall all over that spectrum.

i look forward to hearing more from you about this. thanks for an enlightening and thoughtful post.

[eloiseaparis.livejournal.com]

i posted my own reply before i read yours, but we said very much the same things. no, i'm no tomboy, but i *totally* understand what you said.

[winnett.livejournal.com]

You had a wonderful post too. It is amazing how we can only be A or B in our society. And if you are outside of it, you are abnormal, looked down upon, mocked.

And yes, it is bothersome to me as well that doctors decide that this baby should be a girl and follows through with a surgery, sometimes without the parents knowledge. I guess, perhaps, in the long run it is easier for the kid to adjust to society, but still. I don't necessarily think Society has all the answers and conforming is the best option.

[eloiseaparis.livejournal.com]

believe me - i could tell you horror stories that would make your head spin - some my own experiences. it ain't pretty and i don't talk about it much, but suffice to say that a. even doctors who play god screw up sometimes and b. nature has a way of taking care of itself. i'm attractive, healthy, smart, and i have a gorgeous and vibrant little boy whom i like to brag about. that other stuff doesn't really matter, anymore. :)

may i add you? we share some common interests.

[birdbard.livejournal.com]

Wow, interesting line of thinking. Funny that I don't really think in lists like you do, and can't break my male/female aspects down as easily as you seem to have done. As a matter of fact, thinking about it, I don't have specific things that make me feel "female". Even though I am an empathic/touchy/feeling kind of guy! lol! On the flip side, there are things that make me feel more manly, like doing home projects or working on the car. But rocking a baby to sleep on my shoulder, cooking a meal, or nurturing my kids all make me feel manly too. Hmmm...

I liked Winnett's take on reincarnation, which I also strongly believe in. My wife and I were just talking about this, and she only remembers female lives, I only remember male lives. I wonder if your current orientation makes it easier to remember similar incarnations? Or if some souls are always one or the other? And some choose to switch? Guess I'll have to remember to ask that one when I'm between lives next time! ;)

I agree with everyone that it is too bad society is so inflexible. My kids show traits of each gender, and we encourage openness and emotional maturity, following what you love, not what society dictates. Hopefully our kids will grow up in a more accepting world. :)

[winnett.livejournal.com]

I am sorry you had to go through bad experiences. But happy that things are going so well for you now and you haven't let the experience burn you. It is good to focus on the good things in life rather than dwell on past events. I try to do that about things that happened to me, sometimes it is hard. I wish more people did.

And yes, please do add me, I will add you too. :)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Generally I try to 'think cat'. Fluffy, loafing about with big poofly paws. }|) It seems more attractive than trying to think in gender identity, which would seem conducive to stereotypes.

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

But in rl, people tend to see you as either a boy or a girl, n'est-ce pas? Soo...how do you feel about that? Is there ever a difference between how folks perceive/treat you, and how you would define yourself?

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the insanity! *grin*

I love your icon...you manly man, you. :-D

C.

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

*nods* I tend to think that we are evolving into a more gender-neutral or intersexed society, but admittedly that may be my own bias. And I'm sorry to hear that you've had (or at least implied that you've had) some negative experiences in the past related to sexual or gender identity.

I do have a testosterone-laden kid. I tend to think it's genetic and not socialization, as D tends to be a more low-testosterone nurturing sort of male. Though the 5yo tends to be more like me in most respects, and I am a pretty intensely emotional person. So maybe he is just taking after me and expressing those emotions differently than I do.

As far as writing goes, I like to think that my 'voice' would vary depending on character. So, for example, I'd have a female voice when writing a female character and a male voice when writing a male character. But while I am actually *doing* the writing, I feel neither male nor female, just writerly.

Thanks for your posts on this topic. I really appreciate them, and you. :-)

C.

[eloiseaparis.livejournal.com]

kewlies .. and welcome. :)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

So much of what you've said resonates with me as well.

Do you have a website for the information about Navajo beliefs related to gender? I'd love to read more about that.

And I also believe in reincarnation generally, or at least am open to the possibility. If it *is* true, I think that I've been both male and female in my past lives, though I don't have anything to base that upon, really.

Thanks so much for your post. :-)

[eloiseaparis.livejournal.com]

:)

oh, i don't, nor have i ever had a problem with gender/sexual identity. i know exactly what i am - that's never been an issue. in a nutshell .. and without getting into too much gobbldy-gook .. i was born a little intersexed. fortunately for me, the brand of intersexuality i was born with has to do with internal stuff and takes care of itself, for all intents and purposes, at puberty, with normal menses and all the normal girly characteristics. if they had left well enough alone, everything would have been fine. it's what the hacks doctors did that was the nightmare part. i was a childhood guinea pig, and for no reason but to satisfy the doctors' curiosity. and once they screwed up they tried to cover their tracks and cover it up. it's really a sick, sick story. if the SOB's were still alive i'd sue them. i still don't know what and how much my parents were told, they're still freaked out by it all.

but me? all girl. always will be. not a problem. :)

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Generally I'm comfortable being regarded as a guy or a boy, but it can be fun to try and project the cat feeling there too. Some friends do scritch me behind the ears and such. Purr. };)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

*grins* I could see that...

[winnett.livejournal.com]

I couldn't find the exact information because it was word of mouth and I heard it years ago. But I did a quick search and here is some of the stuff I found.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/gender/intersexuals/article_native_american.htm

" Many of the world’s cultures recognize more than two genders. The notion that there are those of us who do not fit precisely into either a male or female role has historically been accepted by many groups."

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072500506/student_view0/chapter11/faqs.html

" Isn't sex and gender the same thing?
While sex and gender are related, they are not the same thing. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the activities, behavior, values, and ideas that a culture assigns to these differences. These activities, behavior, values, and ideas do not have any intrinsic basis in the biological differences. While there are only two sexes, male and female, there can be more than two genders. For example, the Chukchee of Siberia recognize four genders: 1) gendered male who is sexed male; 2) gendered female who is sexed female; 3) gendered female who is sexed male; and 4) gendered male who is sexed female. Religious specialists generally assume the last two genders. Since sex is biologically determined, it is fixed. In contrast, as a cultural construction, gender varies from culture to culture and over time within a culture.

http://www.indiana.edu/~lggender/sex-vs-gender.html

Gender versus sex

[winnett.livejournal.com]

Hello!

Yea, I only remember female lives, but I have always been more typically boyish. I do wonder about my other lives though. Not distincly enough, anyway. It is something to try to see if they pop up. Maybe it is easier to connect with lives of your current sex. But I do feel that I have a connectedness to more male aspects than female, at least they come more easily sometimes.

Might be a neat meditative experiment. :)

[winnett.livejournal.com]

Mew! A person after my own catlike heart. Luckily I have friends who will skritch and purr back, so all is good. :)

But I know what you mean about projecting cat. I do that a bit too. I am a furry at heart.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

(Bard points to its own map (http://www.livejournal.com/users/bard_bloom/23444.html) by way of reply.)

[collie13.livejournal.com]

Fascinating stuff! Thank you so much for this thread, even though I don't know who started it. Here's my take (http://www.livejournal.com/users/collie13/5703.html) on gender and myself. I wish we had more guys doing this -- it's quite engrossing! ;)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

Do you mind if I add you as a friend? I really liked what you had to say. :-)

[foxmagic.livejournal.com]

I've been wanting to reply to this journal entry of yours, 'cos I find it fascinating. But I remain clueless with absolutely no idea how to reply. So I'll just plunge forward. :)

I don't understand femininity. I find it fascinating, naturally, but with this also I remain clueless with absolutely no idea about it.

In my life to date, I've been around males MUCH more than females. I went to an all-boys high school - that certainly didn't help my experience with the opposite sex. I majored in a predominantly male-dominated field. It was rare for me to have any women in my workplace, and the few there were, were very masculine. I've only ever known a few women very well, and most of them have been somewhat screwy (such as Mom and Grandmom), so this didn't help either!

So, nerdy as it sounds, if you said I hadn't had a whole lot of experience with the fairer sex you'd probably be close to the mark. Yes, I've dated, and been intimate, but there's a whole angle to the entire realm of femininity which I simply don't grok. I don't comprehend what it must be like to be you, in your skin. I don't understand the way your gender thinks, if it's not stereotypical to say that.

I am me - I don't cast myself in terms of a gender, but I suppose (and hope!) that I fall on the masculine side of the coin. I don't know how to analyze my behaviors in terms of gender.

All this is why I still yearn to find the one who completes me - so I can do long-term study on her and maybe figure some things out. ;)

[collie13.livejournal.com]

I would be delighted and honored! However, I should note my LJ is just passing random thoughts I've had, and not always well written. For better writing and thoughts from me, may I suggest my web site, Collie's Bestiary (http://www.colliesbestiary.com)? I simply adore getting constructive feedback to the articles I write there. Either way, thank you so much! ;)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

It's too long to post as a comment, so I'm going to start a new entry. I hope you don't mind. :-)

[winnett.livejournal.com]

You are certainly welcome. I will check out your take on it as well. It is an interesting concept though, so few people actually think of gender, just sex type.

[foxmagic.livejournal.com]

Of course I don't. :)