(no subject)

[falcongrrl]

required reading: http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/

This could be triggery, particularly if you or someone you love has experienced any kind of sexual assault or molestation, but it needs to be read by men and women alike. Let's do what we can to create a safe environment for girls and women.

Comments

[toob.livejournal.com]

It is... incredible to me when women talk about what they go through in day to day life -- getting felt up on buses, molested, harassed... I find it hard to believe at times.

Who ARE these people who do this sort of thing?

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

Just to clarify a little, most of the people in the article were girls (under 13) and teenagers (between 13 and 18). I would imagine that not-rape sometimes happens to women too, but I think the younger you are the more of a target you are, because the less likely you are to speak up about it or recognize it immediately as a violation.

I could be wrong though. I've been really lucky not to have experienced most of this.

One time I had very bad laryngitis and I was in a convenience store paying for gas with just the worker and me. This was before the age of cell phones, and I was in my early twenties, and I remember thinking, "If he were to assault me, I couldn't yell." Was this unfair to the guy? Oh, probably, hell yeah. But I wonder if it's the kind of thing that would occur to a man in that situation. I think, for a lot of women, it's the kind of thing that at least crosses your mind, and you try to get out of that situation fast.

[whitecrow0.livejournal.com]

I was not-raped when I was twenty-one, though I was groped at, stared at, and talked to a lot when I was in junior high / middle school. (I developed a lot very early; this led me to get a breast reduction so that, basically, I'd be left alone.)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry that you went through this. I wish that I had better words to say.

How do you think we best teach our kids (boys and girls) so that this stops?

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

"Who ARE these people who do this sort of thing?"

There is no good way to identify them. Class, race, age, education: none of these are good indicators of men who harass or assault women.

Most of the time these actions are invisible to other men. Please, please believe it.

[rowyn]

I have that same sense of alienation. These men are just alien to my experience, as foreign as if they were from another country. Or another planet. I believe it, but I don't understand it. I can barely imagine the thought process behind the actions, how someone can do things like that and think it was a reasonable action to take.

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

This is the passage that really broke my heart:

I notice small changes in her - how she looks at the floor a lot more than she used to, or how she seems uncomfortable going anywhere without a group of girlfriends. She still looks like an average teenager but she is often hesitant and uncomfortable, unless she is around her peers.

I also really appreciated that she had better advice for men who don't see woman as objects than "Just... just get the hell away from us." At the risk of making it sound like it's "all about me," it always hurts when I get lumped in with these abusive monsters because of my alleged gender. My culture and my personality are totally alien to theirs -- gods, I hope so -- and I'd really rather be an ally.

But as much as I'm wary of the term "privilege," this article really brought the difference between being raised male and raised female into stark and horrifying relief. I would never do any of the things discussed in the article, but I've never had to worry about having them be done to me either. It's always shocking to hear about, because there is so much silence, and it almost never enters my daily life...

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

I feel very lucky that only one ever happened to me that I remember - a boy would accost me on my way to P.E. and try to feel me when I was in seventh grade. I told my parents and the principal about it and it stopped. However, it probably honestly didn't hurt that I was a white honor roll student and the boy was black and not on the honor roll.

It did teach me that I would be believed.

I hope you know that I know you would never do anything like this, and I don't lump you in the category of people who would do this. Having a cock never equates being an jerk (or even being genderly male, for that matter, but that's a whole other discussion). I just posted it because I have a six-year-old daughter and I want her to come to someone if anything like this ever happens to her.

(Though if she came to you, I would worry for you, because I think you would try to kill the bastard/s.)

♥

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

Oh, no no, that's just it -- I thought the article was very sensitive, maybe even unusually so, towards any kinder-natured men who would happen to be reading.

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

And yeah, I've confessed to Peggy that sometimes I have really violent, really MALE fantasies about what I'd have to do if anyone ever hurt her, or Rik for that matter. *blush*

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

*grin* I think that's your temper more than your cock, dear.

(and I have a similar protective male tigery side, too, fwiw)

[rowyn]

I have those fantasies, too.

I'm really, really glad that T went to jail. I wish he had been there until he was 46.

I hope he's learned something in the meantime.

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

"At the risk of making it sound like it's "all about me," it always hurts when I get lumped in with these abusive monsters because of my alleged gender. My culture and my personality are totally alien to theirs -- gods, I hope so -- and I'd really rather be an ally."

Lumped in how? Your wariness of applying the term "privilege" to yourself might contribute to that lumping. Got it? Own it.

It is impossible to be an ally while clinging to the "I'm not like that" bubble. It just doesn't work that way. You need to know, to listen, and to speak out against it in front of other men.

ladyperegrine, thanks for sharing this. I appreciate the opportunity for a little dialog on this topic.

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

wapsi, I understand what you're saying, but I also want to bring to your attention that C4 is probably more on the transsexual spectrum than strictly XY in the classical sense. So even though C4 has a penis, I'm kind of hesitant to apply the label of "male privilege" as there are other aspects of "cisgender privilege" that wouldn't necessarily apply.

Feel free to debate me on this, of course. :-)

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

Anyone who has claims to have heard little about sexual violence is there because of some type of privilege. I didn't in my above comment mention what type of privilege zie might possess. Whether that privilege is related to zir sex or gender may be debatable. While the story you linked to is about VAW, trans folk are as, if not more, susceptible to sexual violence.

I'm never shocked when I read these stories. I've lived some of them, as have many friends and acquaintances. One of of six women in the US has been sexually assaulted. I'm sure the rate is higher for MTFs.

circuit_four wrote, "I've never had to worry about having them be done to me either." I mean, that's the very definition privilege, isn't it? (Feel free to continue the debate! :^))

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

I think I'll leave that to you. I smell doctrine. >.>

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

As in, that's "someone else's" definition, not yours? So it doesn't apply to you? ummmmmmm yeah

How do you define privilege?

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

Uh, thanks. I'll take that under advisement, and not continue this conversation if you don't mind terribly. At least you didn't use the phrase "educate yourself."

(Sorry, Peregrine. This was... not necessary. I had to say something.)

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

It's kinda hard for me to speak from your perspective though without being worried I'm getting things wrong or revealing more than you're comfortable with.

I'm happy to debate the issue with wapsi, though please call me out if I'm misunderstanding; I want to be sure I'm not crossing a line here.

one second thought, no, this needs to be dealt with...

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

1. I never said I've "heard little about sexual violence." I'm quite aware of the topic, the statistics, and the impact, thank you. I never said that I was unaware of the problem nor ignoring it -- I'm just lucky enough that I haven't had to live with it day-to-day. My close friends, trans and genetically female, have largely avoided these traumatic events (or not seen fit to speak with me about them, which seems unlikely from my closer friends). All the stories I've heard about abuse and violence have been in my friends' past.

2. Incidentally, my ex-girlfriend V. happened to a survivor of a particularly brutal rape and I did absolutely everything in my power to help her feel secure and empowered in our relationship. I sat up with her during dissociative episodes and talked to her all night until she could remember her name. I spent hours talking calmly to her after she saw a triggering scene in Strange Days after she'd locked herself in the bathroom and threatened to harm herself. Therefore, I really deeply resent Waspi questioning whether it's even possible for me to be an ally.

3. I'm married to a transwoman. I have trans friends who assiduously post every news story of violence against transpeople they see. I've debated the subject at length in regard to media portrayals of transphobic violence (specifically in regard to the Vagina Monologues, which a trans friend of mine acted in locally). The irony of presuming I'm not aware of this topic would be hilarious if it weren't so hurtful.

4. I never said I didn't believe in the concept of privilege at all, and your jumping on me for the (calculatedly reserved) phrase "wary of" only inclines me to believe you're more interested inflicting your grievance on a convenient male target -- speaking to me as if I were a representative of a group, rather than a whole person in my own right -- than actually having a discussion. I said I'm wary of the concept. I didn't even say I don't think I have male privilege. I just think the term "privilege" is often used as a thought-stopping phrase to prevent more nuanced discussions of the nature of power exchange between genders and silence criticism of feminist doctrine by a male. Your response has not disabused me of this notion.

5. As for the "I'm not like that" bubble, what am I not like? A rapist? A "typical male"? Someone with the unearned luxury of not worrying about sexual assault? Well, I feel pretty sure I'm neither of the first two, thank you, and if you'd seen my actual words instead of a big black bar labeled "[PATRIARCHAL APOLOGETICS HERE]", you'd have noticed that I DID own up to the third: "but I've never had to worry about having them be done to me either."

6. I know. I listen. I just don't run into it on a daily basis. I said as much: but you didn't know that, and didn't bother to listen. But that doesn't matter because you're in the oppressed group and I'm not, apparently. As for speaking out against it in front of other men, your presumption is incredible. WHAT other men?! My friends are gay, female, or trans. The few heterosexuals are all sensitive New Age guys who can barely even muster nerve to ask a woman out to dinner, much less impose their totally non-existent physical prowess upon them. I suppose I could pick up a bullhorn and start yelling at random guys on the street, though, if it please you madam.

7. I don't feel we've even had a dialogue. I feel you had a gut reaction based on things other (putative) males have said to you, and jumped to address me as one of them instead of treating me like a distinct individual worthy of your respect. Guess what? I'm very angrily opposed to the things you said to me. Not because I'm male and you're female. Not because I'm part of some patriarchal power bloc here to strip you of your rights. But because I'm a vulnerable and sensitive human being, you insulted me, and now I'm hurt. And while we're discussing power dynamics and stereotypes, this is a situation that has happened nearly every time I've tried to have a discussion with feminists of a certain political stripe. And while we're discussing silence in the face of oppression, yanno, though I am generally a fairly meek person, I'm starting to come around to the idea that just _maybe_ this one's not my fault.

Re: one second thought, no, this needs to be dealt with...

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I know this is necessary and intense conversation, but this?

The few heterosexuals are all sensitive New Age types who can barely even get up the nerve to ask a woman out to dinner, much less impose their totally non-existent physical prowess upon them.

Totally cracked me up. Because we're in the same circle of friends, and just...yeah.

Re: one second thought, no, this needs to be dealt with...

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

7. We haven't had a dialogue. I weirdly wound up commenting about you w/ lp and that was kind of weird.

The gut reaction I had was to what you typed:
" At the risk of making it sound like it's "all about me,"

It's a story about the violence that permeates the lives of young women, and your comment was that you are glad the author was nice to the male readers. I was floored by that. Dunno why.

Re: one second thought, no, this needs to be dealt with...

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

Thank you PV, for enumerating why I don't even try to talk about this.

- one of C4's hetero friends barely able to ask women out.

(stares in disbelief)

[tahkhleet.livejournal.com]

Wow. I'm stunned.

He says he didn't disagree with a single major element of the article. He admits silence is not good here and dispelling it is important. But he dares to say he doesn't like the unconditional hostility to men that some women attach to these issues (and he's glad its not in this essay) and you jump down his throat.

Way to go. Working on the "subtle threat" of his "hidden sexism" instead of saying "yah, and here's what you can do about the silence". Instead of as much accusing him of being like the type of guy who does the horrible things in the essay. Its rabid crap like that which is a big part of why the movement will never get anywhere.

More importantly, the whole reason doctrinaire feminism will NEVER catch on with the masses is its filled with people like you: obsessed with nuances and layers of meaning to the point of being totally counter productive. You just don't see the practical upshot: when you go around picking fights with everyone over minutiae, no one trusts your strategic judgment. It makes you look very out of touch with reality.

Re: (stares in disbelief)

[wapsi.livejournal.com]

"But he dares to say he doesn't like the unconditional hostility to men that some women attach to these issues (and he's glad its not in this essay) and you jump down his throat."

The article isn't about men.

"Way to go. Working on the "subtle threat" of his "hidden sexism" instead of saying "yah, and here's what you can do about the silence". Instead of as much accusing him of being like the type of guy who does the horrible things in the essay. Its rabid crap like that which is a big part of why the movement will never get anywhere."

I don't know what I said that sounded accusatory. I said he was privileged. Anyone who doesn't know about how routine sexual assault is in our culture is living with some privilege. I don't think people with privilege are bad people, maybe that's where the extrapolation is occurring.

It would be nice if discussion about sexual assault could just be about the people who are assaulted, and not about the poor persecuted doods reading the article, who have ne'er so much as expressed a bad thought to women, have got their fee fees hurt because the author practically said out loud that men are bad people. Just to complete your stereotype fulfillment, yanno.

I'm not here trumpeting a movement, except the one to stop sexual assault. That movement will not get anywhere until men stop insisting they need protection from women's suspicions. Women have a right to be suspicious. You could whine about it, or you could give us the benefit of the doubt.

"More importantly, the whole reason doctrinaire feminism will NEVER catch on with the masses is its filled with people like you: obsessed with nuances and layers of meaning to the point of being totally counter productive. You just don't see the practical upshot: when you go around picking fights with everyone over minutiae, no one trusts your strategic judgment. It makes you look very out of touch with reality. "

I'm not on a soapbox here. I'm just obsessed with women being believed. If that is minutiae to you, that quite proves my point.

I have no clue what your reality is. Personally, I hold the hands of women and girls who are having abortions. Sometimes those pregnancies are a result of sexual assault. Many times the assault was perpetrated by a family member, friend, or qualifies as statutory rape. Most of the people responsible for these sexual assaults are never reproached for their actions. I want to know how this culturally entrenched phenomenon can be stopped, immediately. If you want to criticize me for anchoring my sympathies there, so be it.